Table Talk returns with high ranking and highly revered Scythe Digital Edition player AxlPrototype. In this session, we got into the tactics behind combats and the Discord player aggregated Scythe Tier-List, among other topics.
Introduction.
Norman:
Welcome Axl! What got you into Scythe?
AxlPrototype:
Well, board games aren’t exactly a big thing in Thailand. Everyone here kinda has no idea of what to expect from them. And unless they’re wealthy, people go to game cafes to play if they’re at all interested in them.
So, 4-5 years ago, I was a regular at a game shop, and after a few months of playing basic things, I started to get bored. I wanted to expand my horizon into this kinda new world of table-tops. One day, I just told the shopkeeper that I wanted something new, something big, and I was done playing the gateway-level games. And then came Scythe.
Well, as the game is expensive, the Game Master of the shop wouldn’t let anyone else read the rulebook. So, he’s directing a few of us who’ve never played before with a rulebook that was an English translation. In my area, most people only have at best a 5th grade reading and comprehension level of English. So, as you can imagine, he’s teaching us the game entirely wrong.
I mean, things like: any unit can use your entire number of Move Actions and only a single worker can be produced on a Village hex, despite how many workers are there. But aside from this, I got my 6th Star as Saxony – not even to win, just to end it – finally after the game had gone for 30+ rounds.
I instinctively hated Scythe just because I thought it was long and tedious, so it wasn’t until a couple years later that playing it came up when I was employed at a different game cafe. And though I remembered the horrific parts of playing, I didn’t recall actually knowing any of the concepts or rules, and I had players coming in constantly asking me about it. So, I decided to read through the rule book, and suddenly the game made sense, and I wished I had gotten my hands on it the first time playing.
I love games with interesting lores and fleshed out politics, and Scythe’s world building had everything. Once I understood the design and theme behind all the mechanics, which made much more sense that I had the correct interpretation of the rules and not the gibberish I had been taught, I had a much more enjoyable time. I then proceeded to teach the tables I played with, and got tons of games under my belt since.
Norman:
Wow, amazing story! I can agree that the game seemed really tedious to me at first as well, although I didn’t have someone telling me the rules wrong the first time, LOL.
Scythe Faction Mat Combination Tier List.
Norman:
I noticed you contributed to the infamous Scythe Tier list. What was it like to be part of the six person team that aggregated all that information?
AxlPrototype:
It was interesting and tough at times. A lot of it came down to ironing out playing styles. Half of us play very risky and half of us play more conservatively. As such, getting to the bare bones of some Faction and Mat combinations ended up being based on mapping out advantages to risk and risk-averse strategy. From there, it was a lot of consideration as to which combinations built the best economies, which ones rushed the best, which ones were strongly defensible and which were fragile to aggression.
Initially, we didn’t have the SS and the F tiers. But as we moved combinations up and down on the list, it was decided to add them as so many instances came up of “This combination is good, but not as good as …” or “This combination is definitely worse than … which is D-tier.”
F-Tier Faction / Mat Combinations.
Norman:
Gotcha. Well, now I’m curious, what makes a combination an F-Tier? Like Saxony Engineering. Why is it so bad?
AxlPrototype:
Though bad combinations have their individual grand flaw, they share a few things in common which make them “generally bad.” One of those is that they can neither rush nor make an economy. Meaning: They can’t finish the game fast enough and can’t make decent money at all, even by going slow.
Another thing that these bad combinations have in common is that they just lack something in order to establish their presence; their zoning is not that great. Zoning in games is the control of the area that all players have. You zone an opponent when you box in others on worse ground.
But the cause of this problem depends on each combination.
For example, Saxony Engineering can rush to the center of the board just fine, but they can’t Enlist, so they have no Power to remain controlling the center. If you Trade for food instead of Produce with that combination, you’re slowing down the entire purpose of “rushing to the center.” Additionally, they have the problem of Upgrades that cost 3 Oil and an economy that’s so slow, they gain no benefits from it late game.
In Scythe, area-control is one of the most important aspects of the game that lets the player win. In order to control a sensible amount of area, one must be good at zoning. These bad combinations have things that are drawing them back in terms of zoning more than other combinations. Both directly and indirectly. The former ones usually result in a worse tier. Nordic Engineering, though it has similar struggles, is in a much better tier due to their slightly better placement of the same resources and their faction ability Swim.
Norman:
Can you elaborate on that?
AxlPrototype:
Most of the time, Nordic needs Swim only to take one of the Villages right outside their base, and that’s it. So, Swim is like one of the least utilized abilities per given opportunity in the game. With Nordic Engineering, Swim is actually necessary to gobble up territories and gain early access to food. In saying that, without Swim, Nordic Engineering would face similar problems that Saxony Engineering faces.
Norman:
Hmmmm, that’s really interesting. So it’s not so much about what can be done right out of the gate? For instance, a lot of Industrial combinations seem to be able to churn out mechs super fast with Produce and Trade actions.
AxlPrototype:
Right. There’s two F-Tier Industrial combinations. Industrial mats can pump out quick mechs, provided that the faction starts near mountains – like Albion and Togawa.
So, why can’t they zone effectively? It’s because Build is under their Move action and they’re the two factions that have the most difficult time accessing a Forest. And with their limited movement and lack of Speed Mechs, they’re going to need more Power to sustain being exposed to other factions.
Guess who starts with the least amount of those resources: those two.
Their tundras are in awkward locations, and they get fewer encounters, so spending a turn to Bolster without getting the bottom row action Upgrade out of it is simply costing them too much. Therefore, they’re yet another pair of combinations that can’t zone effectively.
So, to summarize: F-Tier can’t zone while getting a Star or coins. Can’t zone = no combat = even fewer Stars, and less territories for scoring. Area control is just as important as anything else in Scythe.
Mats & Combinations.
Norman:
While we’re on the subject of mats affecting Tier-Rank, what do you think is the strongest mat overall? And why?
AxlPrototype:
The Innovative Mat is the strongest overall since it has the most convenient pairs of top and bottom row actions; not one, but two pairs. With Produce / Move paired with Deploy / Enlist, you just put all of your most-used actions together and reduced the amount of turns needed significantly. What’s more is that the cost of both bottom row actions are only 3 resources in cost, not 4. That’s 8 resources fewer that someone would need for a game. And when you find yourself in a difficult situation, the answer to that situation is probably an Upgrade, which is also conveniently placed under trade on the Innovative Mat.
Adding that to what’s already been established in the overall game:
- Enlist is an overpowered action.
- Produce is necessary regardless of faction.
- Mechs give you three Stars in total (Combat x2, Mech).
And doing them separately takes more turns than doing them together in one turn. Like Rusviet’s Relentless. The simpler the concept is, the greater it snowballs if it can be abused.
Norman:
Alrighty then. What’s one fiction / mat combo that you believe is severely underrated?
AxlPrototype:
Severely underrated, huh? Well, a lot of players look down on Nordic Industrial and Polania Industrial. But like, both of those combinations can end a game in 12 turns with a little bit of luck, and in 14 turns consistently. Mostly, they prefer other mats that can do similar things but give higher coins, which is fair and totally logical. However, what I like about Polania Industrial is that it breaks the norm. It’s one of the few Polania combinations that actually value Riverwalk early.
And for Nordic Industrial, it’s a lot more aggressive than other Nordic aside Innovative. What I’m saying is that players shy away from those two combinations just because they have their similar siblings who are doing slightly better in terms of economy. But those two particular combinations are fresh and unique. It breaks the repetitive cycle of each faction respectively, imo.
Norman:
Gotcha. So with Polania Industrial it’s more about getting to the Tunnel Mountain early than the Factory?
AxlPrototype:
Depending on the encounter, there are good chances that you’d wanna settle yourself on the mountain tunnel rather than go for the factory. With other Polania, you almost always want to go to the factory regardless of your encounters. And camping on a tunnel has its merits. It’s great for hunting down combats on land. It compliments really well for the fact that you aren’t deploying Submerge anyway.
Combat Strategy.
Norman:
I appreciate you sharing. That gives me some food for thought.
Let’s jump to combat strategy.
For all our mass of readers (translation: trillions), you have been considered quite intimidating and unconventional in combat by your peers. Mainly because of your tactics. So, when you approach a combat, how do you look at it?
AxlPrototype:
Wait, trillions? (Does some rough metal math). Don’t chu bamboozle me. That’s my job!
Norman:
LOL. I’m counting the hidden populace beneath the Earth’s surface, considering the Matrix and all.
AxlPrototype:
Ahhhhh. Well, since you asked, there are different ways I approach combat.
When I’m the attacker, I know from the beginning whether or not I want to win that fight, so if I don’t really want to win, I usually – though not always – put in my second greatest Combat Card and forget about it. If the opponent doesn’t fight back, free Combat Star. Alternatively, if they fight back, they’ll have to spend at least a good card and some power because of the tie going to the attacker.
Additionally, if my opponent establishes a clear pattern, I’ll exploit that. But if they aren’t as easy to read as a book, I just take into account things like how many 4 and 5 Combat Cards are spent already in the game and how many I have in my possession, estimate the maximum Power they’d put in, and I just go with exactly that.
Popularity also plays a part. If I know I can’t win a fight if the defender goes all out, I look at their Popularity. If the defender is Tier 2 or higher, I might carry in just enough workers (or a few more) that would drop them down a Tier if they were the attacker. Then, I don’t put up a fight; maybe just 1 Power.
I like to think that in a defender’s mind, if they lose that territory, they won’t be able to reclaim it for the rest of the game without going down a Tier with all my workers there. So, I might have a good chance at tricking them into wasting all of their Power in a fight that I knew I was going to put only 1 Power in.
Things get interesting when I’m the defender, though. Every once in a while I’ll fight back with everything I’ve got when I’m clearly on the disadvantage. Since some attackers expect that their opponent will just relent and put in low Power or a low Combat Card when the defender is clearly outgunned. This catches them totally off guard.
Norman:
That sounds interesting, can give me an example of that?
AxlPrototype:
It’s like a mind game, really. Here’s an example:
I have only 4 Power and a couple Combat Cards. The maximum total that I can put in a combat would be 9 for a single unit. Now, I have a unit on this hex with some resources and I get attacked by an opponent with let’s say a potential maximum Power of 14. Most of the time, attackers in these situations will feel they’re guaranteed to win that fight to get both an easy Combat Star and those resources.
However, I notice that this attacker has another faction that might attack them after they attack me. Will this attacker really throw a big chunk of their Power at me and leave themselves vulnerable to attack? Probably not.
When I see an opportunity like that, I’ll just defend with everything that I got, even if it might put me out of the game if I happen to lose the combat. The chances are more in my favor to win in these cases.
Exploiting Combat Patterns.
Norman:
You mentioned earlier: “ … if my opponent establishes a clear pattern, I’ll exploit that.”
Can you elaborate on this?
AxlPrototype:
Some examples:
- Always giving up when attacked near their base or near a Lake as Nordic. Imma put in this 2 Combat Card and be done.
- Always spending max Power to guarantee victory when they attack. Imma wait until they burn themselves out, then ambush them.
I’d advise everyone to stay unpredictable in combat. Try to put something in between guaranteed loss and guaranteed victory if it’s not a crucial battle. Sometimes just passively confusing the opponent is an edge you can take advantage of.
Combat Strategy by Faction.
Norman:
If you were coaching someone on combat strategies, what would you encourage them to do with a faction like Saxony versus a faction like Albion? Or, is there even a difference in how you approach them?
AxlPrototype:
As an attacker, I’ll always pay close attention to factions that start low with something (aka everyone that isn’t Polania or Rusviet):
- Against those with few or no Combat Cards (Albion, Crimea, Nordic), if they show no signs of enlisting or bolstering by turn 4, it’s probably good to go knock on their door.
- Against those with little to no Power (Saxony, Togawa), it’s even easier, since the Enlist part is less relevant. And if the victim is likely to need power for future production, you can subtract 1 from the Power you’d spend against them in combat.
As defender:
- If I’m low on Power, I avoid exposing my character and mechs unless they’re grouped.
- If I’m low on Combat Cards, I can afford to be greedy and play normally, building whatever engine I wish until I see that I’m 2 turns away from being prone to attacks (due to movement distance). That’s when I start my first Enlist (if I haven’t enlisted already).
- In mind games like this, it doesn’t matter if the cards in hand are bad. Just having enough cards can discourage attackers.
So, with your example, if I’m Saxony, I’d just spend the first 4 turns bringing out my mechs while I observe whether Albion’s going to Enlist or Bolster. If they don’t, I attack them on turn 5-7. But, if they do, I take control of the center, and continue with my economy.
Alternatively, I’m Albion in that same situation, I’d just do my optimal bottom row action (whatever that may be, even if it’s not Enlist) until the Saxony player has their first mech out. If the first mech is Riverwalk, I continue to ignore them. If their first mech is either Underpass or Speed, I’d just fetch some Food and let it stale (as long as my optimal bottom row action at the time isn’t Enlist). And when they deploy the second mech, I’ll immediately Enlist and grab my first two Combat Cards.
If a decision can be delayed, it’s sometimes better to delay it for infrastructure. Being mindful of combat is great, but being paranoid about it doesn’t do anything. So, my general advice is that you should get just enough combat resources to attack/defend, with as little surplus as possible. Unless it doesn’t waste more of your turns to go overboard.
Norman:
Wow, that’s incredibly insightful.
Game Improvement(s).
Norman:
Alright, you know this one is coming and I’m curious as to the answer: What’s one thing you would change about the game if you could?
AxlPrototype:
Well, aside from the obvious “balance changes” answer I could give, let me think …
I wish the structures in this game had more active benefits, something like contributing to combat or defense, or doing something different than just being a more stylish upgrade.
Norman:
Oh cool, can you talk a bit more about that?
AxlPrototype:
Not only will that encourage more plays revolving around structures, the fact that you create something that moves (mech) in one column and need to move in order to build something (structure) in the next column clearly illustrates which one is the superior choice here. So, it’s just the idea to encourage more people to give structures more value.
Also, in war situations, structures are supposed to be some form of shelter and reinforcement. It feels awkward to me that a worker can just waltz into a neighboring territory and seize a mill or an armory unharmed. It’s just not realistic and defeats the purpose of the expensive resources spent into building one.
I’m not sure what that might look like in line with balance of the rules, but something as simple as the concept that it should be easier to reclaim a hex with your structure on it or your units get a bonus to defense if a hex has a structure on it would go a long way to making the Build action more useful in the game.
Norman:
Oh, for sure! That’s a really interesting take. Because, yes, buildings are kind of meh typically unless you want to go for higher Popularity.
Advice on Being More Competitive.
Alright, final question: What’s the most important aspect of the game you would impart to a newer player looking to be more competitive?
AxlPrototype:
One of the things that I’d encourage any players who seek to be competitive to do is learn when to take risks. As much as a good, solid, and “consistent” strategy is the key to success, it’s undeniable that Scythe has a lot of luck and mind game elements. Objectives, Combat Cards, Factory Cards, and Encounters are somewhat random and luck-based.
Encounters almost add up to an additional action (Produce / Bolster) with the received resources. In the early game, you don’t have any resources to work with anyway, so your actions would be inefficient. So, rushing to your first Encounter early is a good exercise at teaching you how to manage your turns afterward and how to adapt to the environment around you.
Though a well-established opening or a written sequence might guarantee you a decent position early, don’t be afraid to just move on your 1st and 3rd turn every once in a while. That way you don’t get into the habit of auto-pilot and moving like a pre-programmed robot, ready to be knocked out by the opponent who’s memorized the same opening. Be unpredictable.
Now here comes the mind game part. Combat Cards and Objectives are closed information. Though it may be obvious to you that a certain action is unsafe, it’s probably not that obvious to your opponent. Be bold, and act as if you’re holding the best of those cards. In Scythe, the more insecure player is the one that will end up making a suboptimal play just to feel better, and that’s where they allow the opportunity for loss to happen.
Of course, I’m not telling everyone to just go and be reckless and never evaluate a situation. But the thing is, even the greatest textbook written by the hardest language can still be read by anyone. So, it probably doesn’t hurt to play the fool’s card from time to time just to mess with the opponent’s head. Newer players in a lot of games, not just Scythe, often seek the way that’s deemed “the best play.” While it may exist, it’s probably not going to be the best if everyone’s doing the same thing.
So, the most important part is: don’t be afraid to be brave, don’t be afraid to try new things, and just go make some mistakes. You’ll learn from it most of the time. And when you don’t, your opponent will be the one to learn from your “mistake.”
Norman:
Excellent insight!
Well thanks for your time and staying up late to chat with me AxlPrototype!
AxlPrototype:
It’s been my pleasure!
I hope you enjoyed this session of Table Talk with AxlProtoype. For more player interviews, check out our Table Talk section! If you’re new to Scythe and want to get more into the game, check out Scythe Digital Edition on Steam and the physical table top game from Stonemaier Games!
Happy Gaming!
- Norman